The Apostle Paul states in 2 Cor 3:6 that "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

In 1 Cor 2:1–5, he writes "When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come with superior eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed the testimony of God. For I decided to be concerned about nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and with much trembling. My conversation and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not be based on human wisdom but on the power of God."

This is the biggest problem that I see with the message today and with the Christian church in general. The early church did not have a New Testament. They had the Tanakh, what we call the Old Testament. Then Paul started writing letters.

What was important was the power of the Holy Spirit, demonstrated so that people could experience it. But that is largely absent in the church today. There are few churches where the power of God is evident.

So they focus on the Bible from an intellectual standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these people aren't Christians. But their Christianity lacks life.

That is not how a person will ever come to really know God. The Bible is important to gain a basic understanding of God BUT without experiencing the power of God, what do you have?

If I had not experienced God power, I would have serious trouble with Christianity. As it is, I do have serious trouble with most churches.

But I am a Christian because I read the Word of God, believed it, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and am led daily by His Spirit. God is actively, supernaturally at work in my life. But without the power of the Holy Spirit, what do you have? A good Methodist? A good message believer?

That is what started my issues with the message. It was supposed to bring restoration but message churches are anything but restored to the early church.

I would agree with this post. It puts all churches in a strange place -- all denominations and non-denominational churches alike, including the "Branham denomination".

More than one church as claimed that their leader came to restore the faith of the fathers, but where do we see Paul's ministry being followed in the churches? If they do preach love and faith in Jesus Christ, where are the gifts of the Spirit?

For now, I am taking the stand that Paul took -- if we have not Love, we have nothing. The greatest gift of God is love.

After comparing the many message churches great and small, there are very few that have love -- even within their own churches. Even less love for their neighbors and their community.

Somehow, we got very lucky with the church we now attend -- the pastor has a very clear conception of this, and has started a wonderful work in our lives. Having just started, I am not yet a good witness to the fruits of the spirit in the following, but if the entire church can have the love of Jesus Christ that the pastor has, the fruits of the spirit will soon follow.

I can see what you are saying. It's almost like the message churches have become like the catholic church in some ways. "If you just believe every word that Bro. Branham spoke you are going to go in the rapture & be part of the Bride." Instead of going deeper into an individual relationship with Christ (which I currently working on). When I realized I know Bro. Branham's teachings better than I know my Bible, I know something needs to change.

I've seen Bro. Billy Paul's testimony where he says "Bro. Branham said it, I believe it, that settles it". Not to be disrespectful towards him, but I think alot of people don't go far enough in their walk with Christ....since all they have to do is just believe what Bro. Branham says and not search out for themselves.

And then there's the mentality (that I'm currently trying to get over): That since the Word of God is revealed to the prophets, and I couldn't possibly understand what is so far above me. So why even study the Bible for myself if I can't understand it anyways?(like I said I'm struggling with this one).

I do agree with you that alot of the people I've seen in message churches are just going thru the motions not seeing God work in their daily lives as you described above.

This will get better in time. One thing that is amazing to me is that I used to think the Bible contradicted itself in many places. Once I read it with an open heart and through my own eyes rather than someone else's, I'm finding that there are no contradictions (so far).

The Bible is of no private interpretation -- it is a living, breathing Word that is for each one of us. I am of the opinion that your understanding of the Word will differ from mine, because God will give you just what you need and give me just what I need.

@Luv, by way of encouragement that you are meant to understand for yourself:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The root of the problem is the absence of baptism by the Holy Spirit in the church.
How the Ppower can be if many have not baptizing by the Holy Spirit at all?
Real Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit with all accomplishing signs- it is just the beginning of the way of a Christian. And in many churches this thing even is not being preached.

Amen!

Act. 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

LuvJesus wrote >>>And then there's the mentality (that I'm currently trying to get over): That since the Word of God is revealed to the prophets, and I couldn't possibly understand what is so far above me. So why even study the Bible for myself if I can't understand it anyways?(like I said I'm struggling with this one).<<<

My friend, Read the Scriptures and you will see that something is not quite right. SeeAmos 7: 1-8 below:



In context, the passage is to Israel, not to the Gentiles (Verse 1). This is even amplified by God telling Israel that He of all people, only loved Israel. Of course God knows all people, but onlt with Israel did God have a special relationship.

Does the Lord says in verse 7, "For the Lord God reveals nothing to you or I without revealing his secret to his servants the prophet (singular) first? Is that what it says? NO! How could God say,


Throughout the Scriptures God speaks to us directly. The prophets have already spoken. WMB was not an OT prophet, how could he be? At most he could have been an NT prophet, but he would have been subject to the 12 Apostles. These 12 Apostles are all dead now. The writer to the Hebrews states:



I could say much more, but this is enough to make you understand that you are not reliant upon anyone "revealing" the Scriptures to you, outside the Holy Spirit. Especially since we have so many Bible translations and helps made available to us by the Grace and providence of God.

God has given us a sound mind, so let's use it.

Tsur

My dear Berean,

You wrote:

>>>What was important was the power of the Holy Spirit, demonstrated so that people could experience it. But that is largely absent in the church today. There are few churches where the power of God is evident.<<<

I think it is important to always be in context. What we see recorded in Acts is that "The Word Grew" which was an idiom for the number of disciples being multiplied. That was the power of the Gospel, or the power of the HS multiplying the Word of God in the hearts of the believers. I believe that history shows that the early church did not have a continued outpouring like was seen at Pentecost. I have seen the same in my own early Christian experience. When I was a child in the faith I had many fears and doubts and God would powerfully manifest Himself to me through various ways. That gradually went away as I became more and more established in His Word, the Bible.

Another thing is that the book of Acts is an overview what happened over many years. I think that we often forget that. and we treat it like these things happened all the time and everywhere on a regular basis.

When you say, "few churches," I presume you are mainly looking within a "Pentecostal" context. Not only that, I presume that you are only looking to see if the gifts of the early church are in operation there. What if those things are not the criteria? We know that all these gifts can be impersonated, as even WMB allowed, to the point where WMB said that Satan heals. I would therefore encourage you and others to perhaps re-think this and look for the fruit of the Spirit in people's lives because, "by their fruits" we will know, right? Nowhere is scripture are we admonished to look at what spiritual gifts are operative in people as an indication of how spiritual they are. Gal. 5 is pretty clear.

>>>So they focus on the Bible from an intellectual standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these people aren't Christians. But their Christianity lacks life.<<<

It is true that intellectualism can rob a person of a life of intimacy with God. However, if a person has no life, we have no warrant to call that person a Christian, because when we are Christians (have the Spirit) we, by biblical definition, have life.

>>>That is not how a person will ever come to really know God. The Bible is important to gain a basic understanding of God BUT without experiencing the power of God, what do you have?<<<

Conversely, if all we have is the "Spirit" without the Word, we have NOTHING. It is only through God's special revelation (the Bible) that we learn about God. WMB was not right when he said we can know God by looking at a flower. Wrong! At most we can see that there, of necessity, must be a Creator. But this flower cannot tell us that God sent a Savior to die for sinners. Of course, the Word of God must be enlightened in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

>>>If I had not experienced God power, I would have serious trouble with Christianity. As it is, I do have serious trouble with most churches.<<<

Not to be disagreeable, my dear Berean, but as I stated above, gifts, and wonders, are not the criteria. Simon Magus, the Bible says, "was considered by all, great and small, to be the great power of God." [My paraphrase] When Philip came he wanted to be baptized but when he wanted to purchase the gift of the HS, Peter told him, "to hell with you and your money." [My paraphrase]

>>>But I am a Christian because I read the Word of God, believed it, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and am led daily by His Spirit. God is actively, supernaturally at work in my life.<<<

If you are a Christian, it is not because all the tings YOU did and I hope you don't disagree with me. Any of us that are Christians are so because Christ called us and saved us, not because of us, but in spite of us. I am not sure what you mean by God being, "actively, supernaturally at work in my life," because whatever God does is, by definition, active and supernatural.

>>>But without the power of the Holy Spirit, what do you have? A good Methodist? A good message believer?<<<

Yup, that is all you would have.

>>>That is what started my issues with the message. It was supposed to bring restoration but message churches are anything but restored to the early church.<<<

Well, that is a start, I suppose. There have been "restoration movements" throughout history and pretty much all of them had an Elijah to lead them. When you look through Church history, the only powerful, lasting movement has been the Reformation. Most of the problems that plague the church arose about 200 years ago, or so. With many prophets and prophets coming on the scene, I see no lasting imprint of heart godliness in people's lives. What did EWllen G. White produce for fruit? What did Joseph Smith produce for fruit? What did John Alexander Dowie produce for fruit? What did A.A. Allen and all the other faith healing evangelists produce for fruit? What did WMB produce for fruit? His own direct family should give us a clue, don't you think? Jesus said, " A good tree produces good fruit. An evil tree produce evil fruit. That is a natural law, they produce after their kind, as even WMB himself stated.

Lastly, why do people want to go back to childhood? Why go backwards? WMB contradicted himself when he said that we must go forward and then he preached we must go backward. Hellooo? Which direction? Where is the Scripture that says we must return to the early church?

Respectfully,

tsur

I think there is value in realizing as Tsur pointed out: Every time someone's heart is changed from sinner, self-serving nature to Christ-follower, that is the work of God. It is supernatural.

Lately I have come to realize that it is easy for me to pray for someone's physical healing. That prayer seems to be often and quickly answered. A more difficult need is a spiritual need. I have caught myself saying, with regard to a particular spiritual need, "Yes, that particular need would require a true miracle of God. It is definitely worth praying for!" I see heart changes as much more rare than physical healing.

This is why I tell my friends who need God in their lives, "If you hear a call in your heart, it is from God! That is a reason to rejoice. He who calls, also justifies and glorifies! Trust in Him."

In answer to the OP, THERE is the power in the church. In the transformation of lives! He has transformed my own in the past 6 months (through opening my eyes to idolatry in our lives), and my husband's MAJORLY in the past 2 years.