Edited to Change the Title- I didn't realize when I wrote it that it needed to be a little gentler. I was genuinely curious why people were spending so much time talking about the Godhead, Serpent's Seed and Modesty when there was such a big elephant in the room.

From the WMB Credibility Issues sub-forum:


I think Tsur is raising an important issue here.

People are spending a lot of time debating issues like the Godhead right now, and in the recent past we've bandied about over lifestyle choices like jewelry, apparel and hairstyles.

When it comes down to brass tacks, what makes it okay to continue to follow someone who tells lies? How can so many believe in a revelation of Seven Seals that includes multiple plagiaristic statements from a book written a generation earlier? How can people insist that Jesus returned to earth in a cloud that appeared a week prior to a "blast" that included no angels according to WMB's testimony prior to picking up a magazine 2 months or so later?

For those who don't understand the Godhead according to "orthodox" pastors, maybe you should go find a Oneness Pentecostal group or a Messianic Evangelical fellowship of binatarians. Just don't use WMB as your reason or your vehicle for this theology, unless you just really don't find it concerning that he told multiple falsehoods and perpetuated a hoax.

For those who love the "Message" lifestyle, continue to live that lifestyle. You will not find anyone in "orthodox" Christian circles condemning you for holding to a standard you believe is holy and following the personal convictions of your heart. Just don't ascribe the lifestyle to WMB's teaching, unless it just doesn't bother you that he was anything but truthful. I can find many scriptures condemning falsehood, but none condemning the wearing of feminine trousers, culottes, or gauchos.

For those of you who are embroiled in a family who will disown you if you disavow WMB, consider the words of Jesus:

I can see the point you're making. But coming from my perspective I want to take a look at both sides here. What you may call lies others may call "just errors because Bro. Branham was a man and he forgot things". Do you really think he purposely lied?

I think its great that you know where you stand. Me personally, I'm still studying here. I know you & seek are eager for others to 'come to the light' but when you've been taught Bro. Branham's teaching are "the light" it makes it a little bit difficult to determine the truth. Also, when you've been taught if you reject Bro. Branham's teaching you're not part of the Bride it makes me tread lightly.

I've been thinking about this alot lately. There is a certain amount of "safety" in the message. I want my children to marry someone fully committed to God. Do I think that there are 'Real' Christians in denominational churches? Of course I do. It's just when I see things I don't agree with in the Christian churches of today, i.e. women dressing immorally to get men's attention, women & men getting drunk, and cussing (to name a few of the things I've seen) yet these same people still profess to be Christians and think there's nothing wrong with doing these things. This is where I get confused and don't see things lining up.

Is this different in your church?

I also think this has a lot to do with tradition....because my father, grandfather believed this it MUST be true.

Whatever path I choose to follow I realize this doesn't only affect me but my children's lives also. I want to raise them to be pure-minded, God-loving individuals who don't just follow "blindly" but know Who they believe in. But before I teach them this I have to know for myself I'm praying the Lord will show me.

I'm going to make a simple point here by giving one example, and then let this topic continue between you two for a while.

When considering whether or not he intentionally lied, I'm just going to give one of several examples:

Take what he first said about the 'Thinking Man's Filter,' praising Billy Graham for Graham's wonderful sermon. Then, compare it to the last large story he said about it, how the 'Lord' gave him this story by divine revelation.

Was this forgetting about having heard the sermon from Billy Graham? Or was it intentionally fabricating a story about how God gave him this special insight?

Yes, definitely. The cloud hoax is undeniable. When you go from a blast and words from the ever-present companion angel (in the First Seal and Seventh Seal) who tells him to consecrate himself for the seven angels to appear to him in his study in Jeffersonville, and it changes to a physical appearance of seven angels who speak to him and tell him about the end times and promise to meet him one by one in his study in Jeffersonville along with mist or a white circle coming up from the ground and going up- That is a blatant lie. And it gets worse as you go forward.


Yes, definitely. I sat in a Bible study with about 15 women from our new church on Thursday and watched their tears fall as they confessed their faults and professed their impatience with the sinful flesh that besets us. I listened to them describe the virtues they were cultivating, and it was so far above the virtues described in WMB's tapes you would not believe. These women were grieving over sins many MSG believers would not even recognize, like complaining, anger, lack of zeal, laziness, lack of gentleness, and selfishness.

Maybe their necklines weren't cut just as high as a MSG follower would like, but most of them had on double shirts to keep the coverage at a maximum (here we are talking about physicality again). We've listened to many sermons from our new pastor which zero in on various Christian virtues, and teetotalism is common, to the point communion is grape juice (even though teetotalism isn't Biblical). Drunkenness has been mentioned only once in my presence by someone from my new church and that was in reference to an agnostic brother in law who was subject for prayer for his salvation (obviously in a derogatory way). There are a number of seminary students at our church and they have to sign a covenant promising not to consume alcohol when they register at the seminary.

I haven't heard cussing and I know that Tsur and Kennah responded with shock when seek was in the early phases of coming "out of the MSG" and wondered whether that was wrong.



I pray the same for you. My biggest motivation for getting into a pure Bible believing church was to ensure that my children are brought up with a strong commitment to God and to the Truth of His Word. Most importantly though, I want their youthful salvation experiences to continue with a REAL CONVERSION based on the Bible and not on a false teacher who tells lies. I have seen the results of a nice MSG upbringing and to say there were mixed outcomes would be a nice way to put it.

Here's a link to a PDF with the quote study where it quickly jumps out that WMB did not testify of angels appearing in Arizona until he saw the Life magazine. It's a lot to read, for which I apologize. John is going to put the quotes into pop-up style like our FAQ page, but that is a large project for another day.

http://seekyethetruth.com/Files/Organiz ... Angels.pdf

To LuvJesus....



I don't think Bro. Branham INTENTIONALLY LIED about things... or at least not any more than the rest of us might to make "our version" of the story sound good... it really wasn't/isn't his fault completely that people (WE/ME/YOU- got to include ourselves here) made everything he said to be their "absolute"... it's human nature to get caught up in the idea that you are "Gods Servant" (especially if you have the "events"/healings that followed him...) and teach that... we ALL "think" we know things and are "right"...
And people "NEED" to "follow" someone, and we look for God in others all the time. I feel he was caught up in a cycle of "mental imbalances" that can/will naturally happen when you live and become obsessed and are neurotic with religion (think about it - Abraham in the OT was the same way...actually A LOT of religious people become convinced that God is "leading them"). I had many "periods" in my life where I was ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that God had "showed" me some supernatural event/happening... 99% of it was mental or hormonal imbalance related in origin- but you couldn't have told me that then...it's only now looking back at the "big picture" that I can see it... and actually a mental/nervous breakdown helped as well LOL! I just made changes in my personal beliefs to ensure that nothing like that ever happened again... that's what we all have to do!

and to be fair... NONE of us have had hours and hours of our "opinions"/thoughts recorded and analyzed by people who are telling you your God or "special" like Bro Branham did... (ie: unless you're Rush Limb/all the others)... you would get caught up in that probably as well... The radio commentators have their own "followers" who believe everything they say and such--- it's really EVERYWHERE if you think about it... we might just need to back off a little and OWN some of the responsibility of Bro. Branham's "control" over our thoughts and ideas... There sounds like there is a lot of "anger", if you will, directed at him (bro. Branham) personally in a lot of the comments posted here... I don't share in the "anger" ... I am "angry" with MYSELF if at anyone (and maybe family members some for "hiding" behind an ideology rather than searching themselves for true Christian character influenced by the Holy Spirit)...





I think you're right on the money when you say "safety" can be found in the message... the thing is you can find safety in many things in life... it's not wrong to NEED a sense of security... we all do! It's a God given nature. Just be careful that you don't HAVE TO check your brain in to be a "partaker" of the security. I'm cool with what ever people want to believe, as long as it's not harmful to you or others... My husband thinks he still believes the message, but he's made a few adjustments to his overall views/acceptance of it, which I think is good. We are all constantly re-evaluating things in our life- it's called learning.

I do find one thing you said above about the "women dressing to get men's attention"... I HOPE you will LOOK at that opinion and make sure it's not been "influenced" in some ways to allow "BLAME"... a "blame" that IS FALSE in origin. Jesus NEVER blamed the women for lust - he blamed the men. There was lust then and they didn't dress like they do now..., and I've "heard" that a man can "lust" no matter how a woman is dressed... so just be careful... I put the "blame" so to speak on the men - "the stronger one"- or in other words turn it around on the "accusers"- two can play this game!! Jesus NEVER mistreated women- and he NEVER belittled them or made them "inferior"... make HIM your example on how you think in this "issue" (because it IS a big issue)... I do feel that Bro. Branham must have had some bad "issues"/feelings/fear toward women which resulted in him constantly putting the "blame" /reponsibility of everything (sin) on them... ANALYZE his motives closely please, because YES there are SOOOOO many good people/Christians who don't follow the message idea of "holiness" or modesty... they DON"T have to- to be modest!

So, Meda, you think he unintentionally invented a cloud and angels after he found the Life magazine article? Or have you not read those links yet? I don't feel any anger in my heart, but I do feel a righteous indignation at the fact he spoke those words over the pulpit knowing them to be false. Or do you think he didn't even realize they were false himself?

I have owned up to my part in participating in my own deception by not operating as the Bereans did, searching the scriptures to see whether WMB was right before I accepted them for myself and my family. In all fairness, though, we have a lot of resources now that my parents didn't have when they decided WMB's words were all true. In those days they had a reel to reel tape without the unreleased portion of the Seventh Seal. I think a huge mythological faith in the Sunset Mountain experience grew from that being unreleased.

Personally I fully believe God led Abraham like the Bible teaches. Was there a particular passage in the Bible that made you think that was a delusion?

Jennifer~

In response to some of your questions, "you think he unintentionally invented a cloud and angels after he found the Life magazine article? Or have you not read those links yet?"

- I did look at the infographic that was posted about the incorrect dates and George Smiths letter, ect.,, I just really believe he BELIEVED this WAS all from God and all about HIMSELF (BRo. Branham)... I really think 99% of it can be chalked up to mental DELUSIONS that if you've ever really experienced yourself you could understand the power they can have over your thinking and such. I had a period of "psychosis" in my break downs and believe me - they were VERY REAL to me at the time, and the more you think you see God in your life you really believe He is doing these things..ect. I think Bro. Branham never questioned himself... or at least he at some point STOPPED questioning his ideas. He just ran with them. He really was a good man in so many ways- we can't assume he was a hoaxer (at least I don't) . Think about it- if you had a gift of healing in your life, had supernatural experiences, loved God they way he did... don't you think you might actually start believing everything was about you? I went through that kind of stuff to some extent- so I understand the "thinking" behind it (at least I feel I do). I could totally see that he started just LOOKING for things to be about him, but he probably really believed they were as well (ie- the cloud).

As far as the OT /Abraham topic... All I can say is... I really feel that Abraham had some delusional episodes that influenced his decision making... and maybe God worked it all out for the good (He said He would)... but in NO WAY do I believe that God would ask someone to KILL their own child... now Abraham might have really believed He did- that's where the delusions I think are VERY possible.

I like this explanation. This does make sense...

Were any of you shown a watch WMB took off before beginning to pray for the sick, esp Epileptics. He said they were a tough demon and often broke the watch crystal during prayer. He would pull it back out of his pocket and show the children up front, shattered crystal, sure enough.