Most MSG preachers will deny this now, but I remember a time hearing the same sermon in about 5 different MSG churches.

It would start out with quotes from "God of this Evil Age", condemning the entire world and its churches. In the middle, it would talk about the bride that was being prepared for the groom. At the end it would be the weeding out of the good from the bad.

Then the fear tactic would start, and it would draw a great altar call: "As it was in the days of Noah. How many survived with Noah? ... 8 souls. Friends, we need to get closer to God!!!!"

This is a common theme through WMB's message. The "little bride" the "chosen few".




Reading the Bible without my "MSG goggles" on, I do find a few scattered scriptures to support a "chosen few". There are far greater scriptures to support a very, very large group of the saved.

I remember after finally coming to this realization, and looking at the people around me at the restaurant we were in after church one Sunday. Without the "MSG goggles" on, you start seeing brothers and sisters in Christ everywhere you go! It's incredible!

A few verses that come to my mind:
MATTHEW 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

MATTHEW 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few".....wouldn't that mean that not that many people are actually serving(working for) God?

Of course we know that God looks on people's hearts and knows all things

As far as the altar calls go....I haven't really noticed the fear tactic used so much just in the Message churches....I've heard preachers on the radio say that the time of Christ's coming is at hand, and we know that this is true.

I do think that the uncertainty in people's minds because they continue to struggle with sin, instead of having no more desire plays a bigger part. The people have such a desire to get closer to God but it seems unattainable, so they go to the altar again & again.

John,

I am not quite sure that the majority of scripture talks a large amount "saved" at the end...?? IMHO.

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Jude 5
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude was laying down the principle that God is not to be mocked and just because you believe but don't stay with the faith, does not mean you will be saved.

2 Thes 2:3 (Amplified Bible)
Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

Luke 18:8b
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

And in my opinion the worst rebuke of all by Jesus himself:

Rev 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you (people who say they are believers = added) out of My mouth.

In all these verses we see some pretty strong rebukes of "believers". These verses don't talk about unbelievers. How could it be called a "falling away" if the scripture spoke of unbelievers. Falling away from what?

However, like I said. There is always a balance. There is a great multitude in the book of Revelation.

The question is... does the prevailing attitude in scripture point to a end time where floods of people are coming to the Lord and salvation. IHMO = no. And at this I am greatly concerned and saddened.

And now, potentially the most chilling verse of all regarding "the end"... this should cause us all to "tremble at His Word!"

2 Thes 2:10-12
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I agree John. Fearing people to the alter is not ideal. However preaching the truth, so that people understand what day we are in, is certainly called for.

And let us not forget... the first "sermon" preached by Peter ended in Peter telling the listeners that they crucified the Son of God. Not alot of warm fuzzies there.

Acts 2: 36-37
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Now I am not saying that everyone in the restaurant you saw was not saved... but scripture doesn't paint a very "bright" picture at the end. Please advise if there are scriptures you see that do point in this direction. I wish this were the case... I just don't see it.

I do see both sides of this -- having believed the MSG for over 36 years.

I'm also not saying that EVERYONE will be saved, we all know that there are those who profess to be Christians and know nothing of God.

But for a moment, take those MSG goggles off and consider this.

Matthew 22, the Parable of the Wedding Feast:
Jesus is speaking in a time where few were chosen. Very few from that generation would make the kingdom of heaven. There were many at the wedding feast! Many were called! It was not for that generation, Jesus only chose a few, and told them to pray there would be other workers in the field. MANY were called, though! Down through the generations, the seed they planted would be reaped.

Jude 5, Reference to the Children of Israel's Exodus
Again, preaching very hard at the Pharisees. He reminded them that the ones who went after false teachers were not saved. Referring to false teachers, but there was a number of the Israelites who made it into the promised land! The census taken toward the end of the wilderness period mentioned 601,730 as being over 20 years old and able-bodied for war, and did not even count the women, children, and older men!

2 Thes 2, Reference to False Teachers
One more talking about false teachers that would trick the large number of [those who professed] Christians away from their following of the Truth! Cults will rise!

Luke 18, Justice from the Judge Who Did Not Fear God
Yet another against a false anointed one! A man who was causing oppression to a poor widow who was coming to him looking for help!

Matthew 7, Sermon on the Mount
This was an entire sermon, preached against the wicked of that generation. It starts in Matthew 5, and ends at the end of Matthew 7. WMB also snipped verses from this. Remember, this is the man who would be found saying "let me take this verse as a context," instead of "let me read this verse in context."

What's funny about this one is that the very next verse is "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Matthew 24, Foretelling the Destruction of the Temple
Again, this one was for their generation. Reading the entire chapter, the very first few sentences describe them pointing to the temple and then asking Jesus when the temple would be destroyed. They asked when the end of their generation would be, and Jesus described how time would pass quickly so that the elect would not turn away from Him.

...

The Bible is an AMAZING book when you read it without those goggles on. There used to be a saying in the MSG churches, how you needed the message as the "hind sight" of your gun so that it would line up with the "fore sight" (the Bible). Funny how that when you read it without that "hind sight", the WHOLE book makes so much more sense!

Pardon the pun, but in hind sight, I wish I had just simply read the Bible for what it is! <grin>

I recognize the fear tactics that some use. I even see parents using fear tactics on their children to try to get them saved. God does not want us to serve Him out of fear but out of love. I keep telling my children how much God loves them and how much grace and mercy He has for them. I want my children to be saved because God calls them and God does the work in their lives not because I've "scared them into it."

I look at this as a two wheeled bike. I honestly believe that both need to be "preached". After all Jesus spoke more of Hell than he did Heaven. I think he did this because ultimately God's will is that "all should come to the knowledge of salvation" however He knows many will not. The message of judgement will reach some and cause them to repent!

Don't you have to know you are "in" prison, before you can accept your pardon out.

Thus the ultimate goal is indeed service and turning to God out of love for Him. However there are times when the truth of judgement and damnation needs to be preached! IMHO

Jude provides a perfect example of this:

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

To ignore this directive would presumably leave some "in the fire"?? Now some translations make it read that the fear part is on behalf of those doing the "pulling from the fire". That is possible. But still, how is "pulling them out of the fire" accomplished? What does that look like?

With that said... I recognize that LOVE is the truest Gospel we can preach. 2 Cor 5 talks about "be reconciled to God. And God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself". Love, love, love. Most definitely this is the leading "gospel" to live and preach. Can't argue with that!

WMB implored the listeners after he preached about going beyond the curtain to "get perfect love". He said it was the greatest "weapon" in the universe. "When Love Projects" is one of my favorite sermons he ever preached. I call it the most underated sermon in the message.

@Freed,

This may be true (although I'd need to first study this particular chapter), but once you save them from the fire, you must then teach divine Love, which is the True Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I personally know highly respected 1st generation message believers who have locked their children (2nd generation msg believers) into horse trailers in the heat of the sun to "stay in there until they get the Holy Ghost."

Fear is a strategy that is used in a variety of ways, but concerning the Gospel is only to be used in extreme situations. And afterwards, when the learn the words of Jesus Christ, they will see that it was only for Love's sake.

When you see the variety of types of abuse that are going on now, and have been going on for years under the cover of the leaders, you can easily see the fruits that are being brought forth by these fear tactics.

I am proud to say that I will never be locking my children in a horse trailer because they have legitimate questions about a bunch of prophecies that you have to strain your brain to even believe in the first place. My children will learn Jesus Christ through Love and Faith.

You certainly wouldn't have any complaints from me. Hence the last 1/2 of my post...

I think we are pretty close to agreement on this issue. With the possible difference in opinion if / when to ever use "fear" when preaching the Gospel. And when I say "fear" I do not mean "lock them in a horse trailer". That seems WAY OVER THE TOP to me. I can hardly believe that is actually done.

When I say fear, I mean the truth about Hell and God's judgment and wrath to those who do not believe. The proper "fear" I am speaking of will hopefully produce a RESPECT for God and the fact that if you do not choose wisely, you will have to face the "all consuming fire" and God's wrath.

I believe without this "balanced" approach, when it runs it's full course... you can get churches full of "Sunday Christians". That is why the author of Hebrews said:

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Again..... lead with LOVE..... absolutely!!!!

But to be honest... this has me thinking too. It seems as I run through scripture in my mind, that many of these "fearful" quotes are written to believers to keep them on the straight and narrow.

I am also thinking of Pauls teaching in 1 Corinthians... when an unbeliever comes into the assembly, that it is good if there is prophesying which leads to conviction of sins and repentance.

1 Cor 14: 22-25
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

So in this instance... the conviction comes by the unbeliever realizing they are LOST and sinful. The answer to this is of course > the LORD and His gracious gift of Love and salvation!!

With all that said... I have not preached a message of fear ever to my kids. We have talked about the greatness of God and His love. But they are also well aware that Satan is a real adversary and his desire is to send them to Hell. Thanks be to God for his saving grace!

We spoke to our Sunday School teacher about the "strait and narrow gate", and he gave us statistics that less than 10% of the world population professes any Christianity at all. If you subtract from that 10% the "Christians in name only" who have never believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, or never repented of their sins and purposed to follow Christ, then your "few there be that find it" is still true, even within all of the Christian churches which teach true repentance and faith in Christ.

The fallacy comes into play when preachers say "few there be that find it" means only a few of those in their assembly are among the Elect. I have definitely heard often over the pulpit, "You all better be checking up! Bro. Branham said the Serpent Seed ended up right in the Message. You don't want to be found in the foolish Virgin and go through the tribulation!" And then would follow a description of the "press" in which the Bride would be persecuted, and financial ruin would hit the USA. Heads would be gravely shaken and young children would begin to cry whenever separated from their mothers, because surely Mama is the most holy person they know, so she will be taken in the Rapture, but as honest little ones they know the iniquity of their own hearts, so what if they are Foolish Virgin?

God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

I am thankful my children do not have to sit quivering in their seats listening to this fear-striking monologue any more. We'll leave for another thread the favorite teaching of Sunday School teachers of young children under age 10 that "questioning the pastor or deacons is a SIN."

The more I read posts and experiences in the message here... the more I see that my experience "in the message" is so vastly different from that of Seek and Life and others. I heard the message was "splintered" and fractured with all sorts of unusual doctrines and experiences, but I never heard specifics like "locked in a horse trailer" or presumably praying to WMB at his grave.

With that said... it would not be for this reason that I would consider "leaving the message". I don't believe that is what you are saying here. I know that the posts are challenging doctrine and vision and facts for the most part.

But I can clearly see that ideas of what "the message" is, are greatly impacted by the local assembly where one went to church. This would be true for myself as well. This was also true for a believer in Corinth vs Ephesus.

I am not pointing fingers here... not by any means!!!! I am just stating an observation and distrinction. One prime example would be the meaning of what I think about when I hear "preaching fear" versus the meaning that another might pour into the term after witnessing "horse trailer" fear tactics. Same word "fear" but (2) totally different ideas and concepts of what that "looks like".


Hope you are all having a good Saturday.